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Specializing in the 3g CSM
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Spends Too Much Time Under The Hood
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Location: Turlock, California
Thanks flying eagle
I wanted to share this for a while, but I did not want to get anyones hopes up if the gains were not worth the work, I'll be adding pictures to this soon.

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Abe


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:24 am 
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I'm thinking and have the bonus of seeing first hand, that some Hyundai/Kia parts would still work with our cars. Just the other day we had a newer Rio in the shop and I bet dollars, the wheels were 4x114.3 and 14". Which begs the question about rotor size and brake booster ratio. -=smile=-

I've recently contemplated a brake booster upgrade on my Subaru, just to boost the ratio up as I suspect the turbo cars are running a tighter setup for the same physical input at the pedal, but I could be wrong and it could be pedal geometry and swept pad area/rotors/piston area that make up the overall difference in a greater fashion. I'll have to dig through the "vacation pics" as the manual are referred to on the interwebs.

Keeps us posted!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Location: Turlock, California
Heres some pictures of the work.
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above is the finished product, notice how the 3G eclipse brake master reservoir contacts the air cleaner clip, also note I made a brake warning light wire extender to reach the 3G masters fluid level sensor... so if you decide you want to use a 1 1/6th master cylinder from a 3G eclipse, carefully remove the plastic locking pin on the reservoir, pull the reservoir off and rotate it 180* reinstall the reservoir and the locking pin and your set, now you will be able to remove the cap on the reservoir without un-clipping the air box :lol:... also you can buy bubble flare to inverted flare adapters, from a parts store to fit the 3G eclipse master to your stock lines, you just have to look carefully in their brake fittings aisle.
Imagephoto uploader
pictured above is the 3G eclipse proportioning valve, it's noticeably bigger then a 3G csm one...and yes I know it's filthy, but I wanted to see what it's effect was before committing to cleaning and painting it.

All said and done I like the end result, the stopping power of this car is now overkill, and pedal feel is a lot softer, and easier to engage then before the swap...of course the harder pedal could be attributed to the fact that the car had the 2 piston brakes up front, and the turbo 1G dsm brake master attached to it's small stock booster...but I suppose if you like a hard pedal that might be a good thing, but I'd opt that you put in a slightly bigger booster, especially if it's a daily driver, a hard brake pedal will get annoying after a while, but if your weekend fun car has a manual trans, with a heavy clutch, you can even out the muscle growth in your left leg, by having a hard brake pedal :lol:
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I got the edm side markers on the colt, I might cut small holes in the fenders, and then add the corner ambers too.
Imagephoto upload
I started cleaning the expo knuckles, via sand blasting, but I forgot to remove the brake dust shields from them, I did not want to damage them when removing them, because I want to try and incorporate them into the finished product, so got creative and I went to harbor freight, and picked up the $11 heat gun, some material gloves, and I snagged some free screwdrivers too, and the flat was all I needed after applying heat evenly for about 1 minute or 2, I then carefully applied prying pressure on the back of the dust shield and the knuckle [in an even manner] from 1 side to the other and they came off without issue.
thats all for now more updates soon.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:11 pm 
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More updates.
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I had a 2G dsm rear strut brace taking up space in my garage [I got it for free a while ago from a 2G dsm part-out, but never found a good 2G :lol:], and I wanted more space, so I crossed my fingers, brought it outside to my colt, and it fits perfectly... I had to trim my plastic speaker surrounds a vary small bit [ I used a dremel], but it looks good, and if I had a cargo cover, it would cover it would be even more stealthy.

I got my hands on another "06 elantra GT booster for my mirage, so I can show you a comparison of the two.
Imagescreenshot tool
Pictured above is the booster spacers, the silver one [on the left] is the stock 3G csm one, and the black one [on the right] is the "06 Elantra one.
Just by looking you can tell the elantra one is like 2-3mm shorter then the 3G csm spacer.
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Now moving on to brake boosters...the 3G csm one is on the left, and the "06 Elantra one is on the right [middle in second pic] and for fun I threw a 3G eclipse GT booster on the tray and took a snap shot of all 3 boosters...but take note, the 3G eclipse GT booster, mounting studs are a lot smaller then both the csm and the "06 Elantra units, and no spacers are used on the eclipse one... now a turbo 1g dsm booster [not pictured] looks a bit like the "06 Elantra booster, but the Elantra booster is just a tad bigger and again the mounting studs on 1g [and 2g dsm] booster are shorter a lot like the 3g eclipse booster pictured above :D, but they do have the same bolt spacing as a 3g csm just stud length is an issue on the dsms and 3G eclipse booster...

I found some more info on the "06 Hyundai Elantra brake booster.

"06 Hyundai Elantra booster specs.
It is a dual diaphragm.

Brake Booster Diaphragm Diameter (in): 8.75.

Weight: 7.2lbs.


"91 Dodge Colt GL booster specs

it is a single diaphragm

Brake Booster Diaphragm Diameter (in): 7.6

Weight: 5.56lbs

From what I have read about brake boosters, the dual diaphragm is good to have when you have 4 wheel disc brakes, single diaphragm is better suited to a disc front/drum rear setup, or an all drum setup, so far thats what most articles on the subject seem to point towards, I might get some stuff to test, and then find out what my boosters true ratio is, but for now take my word that it's a whole lot better then stock.

More updates soon.

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Abe


Last edited by mitsubishikid on Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:28 pm 
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Location: Astoria OR
you are such a wealth of information with all of your junkyarding and experimentation. thank you for your contributions.
Loving your project by the way. one day it will be 63 swapped and be awesome because your putting so much effort into the rest of the chassis before you dive into horsepower

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Black 1989 Colt GT with 4g61t. 200k miles and climbing. Rebuilt 2.0 in the works.....
14b, 450cc's, 3" exhaust, small fmic, all running on megasquirt version: DIYPNP
White 1992 colt-vista wagon 2.4, awd, auto (daily)
Keane


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:16 am 
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Thanks Keane, I'm trying to be as helpful as I can, I know how hard it is to find good info on our cars, and sometimes the info is buried deep in the archives, or just plain undiscovered as of yet, the main reason being that most of the cars I'm sourcing parts from, were likely not cars you could find at the scrapyards everyday, some newer model cars have solutions to some of our cars problems, that much is apparent. I love pulling stuff from junkyards, it saves , time, money, and as a bonus, if said junkyard has your car there you can try all sorts of creative parts swapping.

Abe

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:02 am 
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Some more build updates.
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Before and after shots of the expo knuckles.
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I sand blasted and powder coated a few things for the eventual build... The 4 bolt axle cups are for my talon, I'm swapping in a 4 bolt rear differential soon, they turned out pretty good I might do this on my mirages 4 bolt rear as well :lol:.
I know I don't have to go this far, but I want to powder coat what ever I can to make things a lot more durable... :-? damn I wish I had the means to do this for the rear brakes/brackets that are on the colt... oh well all in good time.

but now I still have to do the hubs, brake dust shields, a set of Elantra lower control arms, a few more sway bar brackets that I have, and some Elantra Dohc motor mounts that I picked up for the future 4G63 swap... basically a lot of this will be done for my colt and my mirage.

I likely will be doing a lot of this until I have room in my garage to get back to my wiring project on my mirage,
[and I'm kinda waiting for the weather to get better] it's been raining dsm cats :lol: and dogs all week :cry:.

Speaking of cats... Gratuitous double cat lounging shot :D
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:03 am
Posts: 251
Location: Auburn, AL
You have a lot of great info, but I am not feeling comfortable choosing a master cylinder and booster setup.

I have a set of CSM knuckles and Expo knuckles. I want bigger brakes but worried about the geometry issues using Expo knuckles.

Have you looked into using Evo VIII booster on our cars? What would you recommend for a bigger brake setup - I plan on using 2G dual-piston calipers at some point.

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2003 Evo, 89 Mirage Turbo, 88 Conquest 4G64


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Do the GVR4 brakes (calipers/rotors (4 lug GVR4 not DSM as they require redrill from 5-4), stock CSM knuckles, machine hubs, make 4x ~6mm spacers, remove old rotors and install new bearings and seals with high quality grease. Rinse, repeat.

Add a GVR4 master to the mix, so basically a 1" master which is 1/8" up from our 7/8" master on the turbo models. Add some braided stainless lines to the mix and enjoy the pedal feel and larger brake pads with greater swept area. You could even keep the stock master cylinder 7/8" and see how it does for pedal travel and feel, because it in theory will travel a bit further but may just have more pressure applied because of the math. Usually when they go with more surface area at the calipers (piston sizes going up), they up the master diameter slightly and up the booster ratio as the weight of the car goes up (and sometimes booster split ratios for ABS to confuse everything).

I have never factored in pedal leverage ratios between all the Mitsu cars but with so many interchangeable parts, things are just working well in certain combinations. You don't have to do the 1-1/16" master because you may have less cailper piston area than my wilwoods, and won't have a need for a bigger booster ratio above the stock turbo as a result. If we could get a booster with a higher ratio than our 4.0:1, that would be helpful to play with.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Hey Abe,
Quote:
From what I have read about brake boosters, the dual diaphragm is good to have when you have 4 wheel disc brakes, single diaphragm is better suited to a disc front/drum rear setup, or an all drum setup, so far thats what most articles on the subject seem to point towards, I might get some stuff to test, and then find out what my boosters true ratio is, but for now take my word that it's a whole lot better then stock.

More updates soon.
I wonder if the dual ratio booster, is part of dealing with an entirely different/lesser proportion to the rear brakes, more to the front (Hyundai uses really small pistons at the back of many of their vehicles from what I see on a nearly weekly basis) and able to incorporate into the their ABS design well. If it works out here, that is great, but maybe, just maybe front brakes get a different ratio than rear. Basically I am hypothesizing that it would be good to know if the booster is dual ratio or if is a simply update with boosters running a dual diaphram for other technical and design reasons as a simple improvement over the single. Time for me to do a little research too.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:03 am
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Location: Auburn, AL
Quote:
Do the GVR4 brakes (calipers/rotors (4 lug GVR4 not DSM as they require redrill from 5-4), stock CSM knuckles, machine hubs, make 4x ~6mm spacers, remove old rotors and install new bearings and seals with high quality grease. Rinse, repeat.

Add a GVR4 master to the mix, so basically a 1" master which is 1/8" up from our 7/8" master on the turbo models. Add some braided stainless lines to the mix and enjoy the pedal feel and larger brake pads with greater swept area. You could even keep the stock master cylinder 7/8" and see how it does for pedal travel and feel, because it in theory will travel a bit further but may just have more pressure applied because of the math. Usually when they go with more surface area at the calipers (piston sizes going up), they up the master diameter slightly and up the booster ratio as the weight of the car goes up (and sometimes booster split ratios for ABS to confuse everything).

I have never factored in pedal leverage ratios between all the Mitsu cars but with so many interchangeable parts, things are just working well in certain combinations. You don't have to do the 1-1/16" master because you may have less cailper piston area than my wilwoods, and won't have a need for a bigger booster ratio above the stock turbo as a result. If we could get a booster with a higher ratio than our 4.0:1, that would be helpful to play with.

Thanks, that's the exact setup i want to do. I thought 2-piston calipers were essentially the same from May '92 cars+ . If i specifically need calipers off a GVR4 then that's news to me, otherwise I was going to rob them off a diamanté or 2G in the junkyard. Isn't there a Mini Cooper rotor we can grab that's a little larger than a GVR4 rotor?

So my setup with be: stock master, stock booster, stock proportion valve, SS lines, dual piston calipers and GVR4 or Mini Cooper rotors.

Sorry to thread jack. Thanks Eagle!

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2003 Evo, 89 Mirage Turbo, 88 Conquest 4G64


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:20 pm 
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Cooper rotors were a fit for the rear, and were used by 89Mirageman IIRC, maybe he did fronts too? I can't remember, so I won't comment there. Should be an archive thread about here. GVR4 calipers are 2g/Diamante/later DSM 2 piston calipers, just be sure of which type of fitting they have on them for brake hoses! Some are Banjo, some are threaded. Check Rockauto for some comparison pics of what you may be working with.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks, that's the exact setup i want to do. I thought 2-piston calipers were essentially the same from May '92 cars+ . If i specifically need calipers off a GVR4 then that's news to me, otherwise I was going to rob them off a diamanté or 2G in the junkyard. Isn't there a Mini Cooper rotor we can grab that's a little larger than a GVR4 rotor?

So my setup with be: stock master, stock booster, stock proportion valve, SS lines, dual piston calipers and GVR4 or Mini Cooper rotors.

Sorry to thread jack. Thanks Eagle!
You can also get the twin piston calipers off of the non turbo 3000gt or the non turbo Dodge stealth.
regardless of what brake master or booster combo you go with, I would recommend stainless lines for sure.

As far as using an evo 8 booster goes, I was thinking about this, but I saw pictures of them online and realized that they don't use a booster spacer, and they look a lot like the 3G eclipse ones, so I would doubt they would have long enough mounting studs to reach the inside firewall of a 3G csm without lengthening them some, or customizing the firewall.
I did a video on the boosters in my garage here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUdflbS2rPk

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Last edited by mitsubishikid on Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Quote:
I wonder if the dual ratio booster, is part of dealing with an entirely different/lesser proportion to the rear brakes, more to the front (Hyundai uses really small pistons at the back of many of their vehicles from what I see on a nearly weekly basis) and able to incorporate into the their ABS design well. If it works out here, that is great, but maybe, just maybe front brakes get a different ratio than rear. Basically I am hypothesizing that it would be good to know if the booster is dual ratio or if is a simply update with boosters running a dual diaphram for other technical and design reasons as a simple improvement over the single. Time for me to do a little research too.
Have at it Tim, I'm just as curious to know what the specs are, I posted as much as I could find on the subject, however recently I discovered that Hyundai owners like to use the Tiburon booster when they swap over to rear disc brakes, and according to what I read, the Tiburon has a better booster ratio then the Elantra, but I'm not sure if it's studs are long enough to work in our cars or anything beyond that but I would not doubt if they would work.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:26 pm 
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For people really keen, boosters can be separated in there two respective shells and one could knock/press out the studs and add longer ones to make up for a lack of spacer assembly. Sounds very doable.
Maybe McMaster Carr has studs like that in stock or available through another source. Idea number one for today.

For anyone reading, the large the diameter the booster (when it comes to single diaphragm boosters), the greater the booster ratio. There are dual diaphragm boosters which get very deep, but save the space side to side. Most of the Mitsubishi stuff we use is typically single diaphragm but don't quote me.

When I get a chance, I'll check out your video.


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