4g61t.org

Specializing in the 3g CSM
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:36 am

All times are UTC-05:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 4G15 to 4G63 or 4G67?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
Background to what I'm doing is here. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=40609 The body code of my lancer is C62A so that means 4G15 SOHC 12V.

I'm thinking of doing an N/A swap since I think I'd like more than 90HP and more torque.

I can't decide if I should go with the 4G67 N/A Imported from Japan my mechanic found or look for a 4G63 N/A! What's the difference? The 4G67 he found includes the ECU, Harness, and MAF with three months warranty and if anything goes wrong we return the engine and wait for a new one.

I found a 4G63T that came from a 1G Mitsubishi Eclipse that is offered with the ECU, Harness, MAF, original side intercooler, and AWD Transmission, but I can opt to just get everything without the intercooler and Transmission if I wanted.

Going turbo would be nice to get that signature choo-choo noise but the hassle of piping, intercooler mouting, and not to mention costs... Atleast if I go N/A I could keep a stock look since I could use my stock intake box and piping, so depending on the engine I go with I would be either C68A or C69A spec or better.

I'll be using the stock 4G15 transmission regardless unless offered a better FWD transmission for cheap.

EDIT: Let's say Turbo anything is not an option, what would be better?


Last edited by Enterprise on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:09 am 
Offline
Some call me a god
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 8:53 pm
Posts: 1494
Location: Seattle, WA
4G63T! Even where you are a FWD F5M33 tranny shouldn't be hard to find, 90-92.5 model year. The AWD trans may be modified to work for you as well.

_________________
89 Mirage Billet 20g 63t 12.4@120 417whp 400wtq @ English Racing.
89 Colt GT E316g
06 Silverado SS
07 ZX6R


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:29 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
Quote:
4G63T! Even where you are a FWD F5M33 tranny shouldn't be hard to find, 90-92.5 model year. The AWD trans may be modified to work for you as well.
Yeah but that cost and the piping and intercooler work is not that attractive. Mostly the costs.

EDIT: Let's say Turbo anything is not an option, what would be better?


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:27 pm 
Offline
CSM Junkie

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:52 am
Posts: 552
Location: Astoria OR
well if you really wont have a turbo than i assume the largest displacement would be best. 4g63 is bigger than 4g67 and will have better aftermarket support even n/a. but really a 4g64 would be even better since it has the largest displacement and you can put a 4g63 dohc head on it and it will look identical to any of the other engines, as long as you can find a 6bolt 4g64.

thats what id do

_________________
Black 1989 Colt GT with 4g61t. 200k miles and climbing. Rebuilt 2.0 in the works.....
14b, 450cc's, 3" exhaust, small fmic, all running on megasquirt version: DIYPNP
White 1992 colt-vista wagon 2.4, awd, auto (daily)
Keane


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:24 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
Quote:
well if you really wont have a turbo than i assume the largest displacement would be best. 4g63 is bigger than 4g67 and will have better aftermarket support even n/a. but really a 4g64 would be even better since it has the largest displacement and you can put a 4g63 dohc head on it and it will look identical to any of the other engines, as long as you can find a 6bolt 4g64.

thats what id do
Well I've read the 4G67 revs higher and harder than the 4G63? Most after market parts would fit the 4G67 so i've read.

Does the 4G64 use the same engine mounts as the 6-bolt 4G63 and 4G67?


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:44 am 
Offline
Some call me a god
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 8:53 pm
Posts: 1494
Location: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Quote:
4G63T! Even where you are a FWD F5M33 tranny shouldn't be hard to find, 90-92.5 model year. The AWD trans may be modified to work for you as well.
Yeah but that cost and the piping and intercooler work is not that attractive. Mostly the costs.

EDIT: Let's say Turbo anything is not an option, what would be better?
Just hot pipe it, I've ran a hot pipe setup, it's not that bad. Then you can find a stock side mount intercooler for $20 or less and slowly upgrade front there. For the turbo you can get a 11b, 13g or 14b for dirt cheap. I'm not trying to convince you of anything just letting you know it could be much cheaper than you're thinking and you'll be 10x happier. :supz:

_________________
89 Mirage Billet 20g 63t 12.4@120 417whp 400wtq @ English Racing.
89 Colt GT E316g
06 Silverado SS
07 ZX6R


Last edited by xxNocturnalxx on Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:26 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:16 pm
Posts: 62
Location: waterbury,ct
I have a 4g63 n/a in one of mine 272 cams and I have power all the way up to 7k not to brag but she eats my son in laws 98 civic b16A civic swap up.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:32 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
We're going to check some engines next week to consider their reliability and offer price. But I still can't decide if I want to go with a generally cheaper 4G67 N/A or splurge abit and get a 4G63 N/A.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:54 am 
Offline
The Silent Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:32 pm
Posts: 9524
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
No replacement for displacement, if you aren't modifying much in terms of intake and exhaust. Torque. Same engine blocks, different pistons from the NA to turbo versions.

European GTi type Colts had 1.8L motors with 10.x:1 compression. Find some of those pistons or a motor, and or compare to the highest output JDM motors, and that will net you the highest torque and HP from a stock motor setup with no mods done to it.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:16 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
My mechanic said he has a custom exhaust header for the 4G67/4G63? that I could have if I decide to go to Sirius engines. Exhaust would be stock pipes until the rear axle where I would be putting an aftermarket muffler and twin tips that would fill the void the stock bodykit has.

Don't high compression 4G67's have knock sensors and low compression ones didn't? I'll be putting it on the Dyno regardless of the route I go, just so I can have confidence that it's making the rated power.

How much power are we talking about on the overhauled 4G15, and surplus 4G67 & 4G63 N/A?


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:00 pm 
Offline
The Silent Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:32 pm
Posts: 9524
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
A 4g15 in basic trim should put down 92 HP, a 4g67/4g63 will be around 120-130 HP in stock trim and maybe more when it comes to a knock sensor higher compression GTi motor (1.8L Euro).

The custom exhaust header would help, but it would also move your power band up in the RPM range. Make sure you get to see some dyno sheets for support, from where ever you can find them. Basically losing some bottom end and gaining more flow on the top end. Probably won't be too bad, just depending on how large the collectors at each cylinder exit point and the style of exhaust, like 2x2 down to 1, or 4 down below the oil pan and combining to 1 collector. The 4g15 used an interesting setup to get some decent midrange, but the 3 valve head just can't flow anymore to allow power up top. It is the single biggest hurdle with the motor. That and the head gets super heated.

4G67 and 4G63 have an entire aftermarket of stuff catering to them, mainly 4g63 but so much stuff is interchangeable, that it keeps the 4g67 alive too!

You could conceivably take a 4g63 NA motor up to the 150-170+ HP mark, but it will cost you what you would have paid to acquire the 4g63t and get it up and running, in tip top shape. NA running maxed out or the 4g63t running low boost and capable of so much more. Doing the NA motor will require some custom machine work (porting), pistons, extrude honing of the intake manifold, intake/TB work, injector change ... maybe and then require tuning via SAFC or similar splice in device to fool the ECU into working with custom parts. The list of headaches goes on. If you get an early style 4g63t motor, all electronics can be easily converted to newer facelift (USDM 91+) style parts where the harness plugs in right at the ISC, TPS, CAS, etc. Otherwise you have 1-2 years of available parts to search for when something goes wrong. Most of the cars sold were the newer versions and have more support sitting on the shelf. The don't make an EVO3 turbo anymore, but there are many clones that would work for quite some time. Lots of small 16g (Galant Cyclone type turbos) still around and 16G (big) turbos too. All this to say that the factory 14b puts out 190HP in it's lowest form of trim at 12PSI boost at the turbo. It then bumped to 210-220-240ish, and then you get to start fooling around with later model parts, because they all (mostly) got better with time. Intake manifolds, cylinder heads, exhaust manifolds, 02 housings, black top CAS's, black top 450cc injectors, convert the injector clips to easy-press-to-release style and never break the clips again, etc etc. These are all things I have looked into as my car grew. I still have very basic parts and with an unknown AFR on the dyno (on a 14b with a bad WG flapper) the car put down 168HP to the wheels running a tank of 94 octane, and a super small Galant VR4 intercooler (USDM model - not JDM, as it was much larger like EVO's).

Long story, but if you have the time to build a motor on a stand and add a few wires to your harness (or splice in another one - harder), then it would be ready to go in one shot instead of pouring over things after the fact in tight confines like the C50 engine bay. It took me a couple hours to install belts .... I need not say anymore because I try not to think of the hard times! wink wink.

The community here does it's best to find parts as they come back into production and are readily available and the best part is that our site is free. I am a member over at the Philipines Lancer forum .... it in some ways, is not totally free. Made some nice acquaintances over there back a few years ago. Lots of good people over there, don't get me wrong!


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:17 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
Quote:
A 4g15 in basic trim should put down 92 HP, a 4g67/4g63 will be around 120-130 HP in stock trim and maybe more when it comes to a knock sensor higher compression GTi motor (1.8L Euro).

The custom exhaust header would help, but it would also move your power band up in the RPM range. Make sure you get to see some dyno sheets for support, from where ever you can find them. Basically losing some bottom end and gaining more flow on the top end. Probably won't be too bad, just depending on how large the collectors at each cylinder exit point and the style of exhaust, like 2x2 down to 1, or 4 down below the oil pan and combining to 1 collector. The 4g15 used an interesting setup to get some decent midrange, but the 3 valve head just can't flow anymore to allow power up top. It is the single biggest hurdle with the motor. That and the head gets super heated.

4G67 and 4G63 have an entire aftermarket of stuff catering to them, mainly 4g63 but so much stuff is interchangeable, that it keeps the 4g67 alive too!

You could conceivably take a 4g63 NA motor up to the 150-170+ HP mark, but it will cost you what you would have paid to acquire the 4g63t and get it up and running, in tip top shape. NA running maxed out or the 4g63t running low boost and capable of so much more. Doing the NA motor will require some custom machine work (porting), pistons, extrude honing of the intake manifold, intake/TB work, injector change ... maybe and then require tuning via SAFC or similar splice in device to fool the ECU into working with custom parts. The list of headaches goes on. If you get an early style 4g63t motor, all electronics can be easily converted to newer facelift (USDM 91+) style parts where the harness plugs in right at the ISC, TPS, CAS, etc. Otherwise you have 1-2 years of available parts to search for when something goes wrong. Most of the cars sold were the newer versions and have more support sitting on the shelf. The don't make an EVO3 turbo anymore, but there are many clones that would work for quite some time. Lots of small 16g (Galant Cyclone type turbos) still around and 16G (big) turbos too. All this to say that the factory 14b puts out 190HP in it's lowest form of trim at 12PSI boost at the turbo. It then bumped to 210-220-240ish, and then you get to start fooling around with later model parts, because they all (mostly) got better with time. Intake manifolds, cylinder heads, exhaust manifolds, 02 housings, black top CAS's, black top 450cc injectors, convert the injector clips to easy-press-to-release style and never break the clips again, etc etc. These are all things I have looked into as my car grew. I still have very basic parts and with an unknown AFR on the dyno (on a 14b with a bad WG flapper) the car put down 168HP to the wheels running a tank of 94 octane, and a super small Galant VR4 intercooler (USDM model - not JDM, as it was much larger like EVO's).

Long story, but if you have the time to build a motor on a stand and add a few wires to your harness (or splice in another one - harder), then it would be ready to go in one shot instead of pouring over things after the fact in tight confines like the C50 engine bay. It took me a couple hours to install belts .... I need not say anymore because I try not to think of the hard times! wink wink.

The community here does it's best to find parts as they come back into production and are readily available and the best part is that our site is free. I am a member over at the Philipines Lancer forum .... it in some ways, is not totally free. Made some nice acquaintances over there back a few years ago. Lots of good people over there, don't get me wrong!
Are those power ratings made at the engine or wheels? I think I'd be happy with 150hp more or less with DOHC. We would finally be checking on the engines soon if not tomorrow.

Regardless of what aftermarket engines we get, we would be getting the original harness that came with it so no problems with the harness unless we're adding more sensors. Would using the 4G67 or 4G63 ECU cause any problems with the tach and warning lights on the dash? Where could I also get the 4G15, 4G67, and 4G63 pinout so I can confirm everything is in the right place? The 4G63T I'm looking at came from a 1G AWD Eclipse and the seller still has the Stock AWD transmission and Intercooler with it. I'm not interested in the transmission since I'm not AWD(yet) but would the intercooler mount anywhere with little to no modifications? We still need to confirm if the 4G67 is high comp, for a cheaper option.

Are you talking about mitsulancer.ph? The community for the 3G CSM on there is practically dead... the last post was on June 21.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:53 am 
Offline
The Silent Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:32 pm
Posts: 9524
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Yes, MitsuLancer.ph. There were many active members once upon a time, but not a large user base to choose from.

Power ratings I want to say, were at the crank, yes.

Wiring diagrams for mostly North American stuff but some stuff overseas being very similar, off by just a few pins in worst cases for emissions stuff, would be located at :

www.lilevo.com/mirage/
www.lilevo.com/mirage/Manuals/

4g67 or 4g63 ECU's won't mess up the signal, but you have to know which ignitor system you are getting, as it will plug and play with the harness, and therefore have to match the cluster.

It is the ignition and cluster signal/decoding that determine the tachometer function.

ECU giving out warning lights would be because sensors are out of spec/conditions, but if matched with the appropriate sensors and systems, should throw no codes when operating properly.

As you are getting the harness and motor together in many circumstances, this solves many, many issues right off the bat.

Overseas motors from Britain sometimes have fixed fuel ratios, and catalytic temp sensors, just like Japan got catalytic temp sensors if memory serves me well enough. They will work if you use the whole system or you can bypass these functions. I have seen posts on www.galantvr4.org about deleting the catalytic temp sensor with some simple resistors that fall into the effective middle range of the system. Then you can seal it up and forget about the light ever coming on if parts are deleted, and the ECU ever running into limp mode if so equipped with that feature for catalytic overheat conditions (unsure about the whole function there, but the point stands it may not have any effect whatsoever).


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:28 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 7:28 am
Posts: 86
Location: Philippines
We just had a look at the 4G67 and my mechanic said it doesn't have a knock sensor. I was hoping it did!

The engine is imported from Japan, most likely from a Galant. It's still attached to it's automatic transmission and I've been told it's likely it had a easier life being a Automatic. The valve cover is silver with red markings and the Coilpack cover? is still there. It looks clean from the outside and a peek inside the oil filler cap looked clean. Forgot to take some photos! Doh!

We also had time to look at the 4G63T from the Eclipse. That one was not so clean and the place was a shop that looked like it specialized in Mitsubishi. There's numerous Evo/Lancer half-cuts, whole Lancer Evolution's, a Pajero Evolution, and even a Lancer EX ( 7G? Lancer) which they are installing a 4G63T from the 4B11 NA.

Anyways... It was dirty but complete, even the stock airbox was there. Although I can't figure out why the timing belt cover was shattered.. Kind of expensive aswell at $1900 and the papers are expected to arrive in two months whereas the 4G67 already has them.

=================================================

The body is going well, it's already at the stage of primer sanding, although we still can't decide on a color! We are having problems on some parts though as they are hard to come by here.

Are Sirius engines more reliable and stronger than Orion engines? ( 4G67/63 - 4G15 ) Also which is easier to get parts for?


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:34 pm 
Offline
The Silent Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:32 pm
Posts: 9524
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
As for engine choices, you would have to ask a Mitsu mechanic that worked on both engines back in their hayday. No one can really tell you which is more reliable, but I bet there are more parts out there for the outside of the 4g6x motors, versus 4g15 motors. Internals for 4g67 may be a little more scarce over here, but overseas there may be more available.
No real way of telling what motor is more reliable. If you have a motor that tests with great compression and you immediately do all the required maintenance and you get lucky that nothing major internally is suffereing immiment failure, then you should be good with any JDM motor. It is a toss up as to what could happen with any motor that gets shipped over. Was it in tip top shape before the car was cut up? Most seem to be from what has come over. Not many horror stories. If motors have been sitting a long time, then there are more questions than answers.

The 4g67 motor if imported from Japan, likely was not a GTi motor utilizing a knock sensor as I believe that was mainly a European thing from what I keep seeing and hearing on the sites. They did not get turbo engines in most locales. Sad really!

Are you staying with a Mitsubishi color, or a factory Colt/Mirage color? There were a few more colors overseas that looked nice, but I have always been a sucker for a silver car, with H84 silver belt line (just like my car) and red pin striping. The brown color looks good when done with darker wheels and paint that shines .... W09 white once faded looks terrible and takes finger smudges badly, but is sharp when it starts off life new. Black will roast the occupants and always look dirty and show swirls in the paint and ANY imperfections that exist - be warned! Red is nice while it lasts - the fastest fading pigment in the spectrum. Masahito Suzuki on Facebook, has a great Porsche blue on his C53A hatch. Looks pretty good, but requires a lot of little details to make the whole car look good and not overdone. The biggest hurdle and thing I catch on a repaint is the little things like the louvers in the front grille section - they get filled with colored paint when they should be black in the inset portions. Unless the car is a really dark color, that portion should not be body matched and usually sticks out like a sore thumb.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC-05:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited