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4g64/4g61 compatibility question
http://4g61t.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38212		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Jonnymick [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Hello, a friend has a 3g eclipse 4g64 5 speed with a smoked motor that he'll sell me dirt cheap and im curious as to what would be necessary to swap in a 4g61?

this isnt a question of power, its just to put together a great mpg, short stroke, small engine cruiser that looks good (i love the look of the 3g's). Will the motor bolt to the trans, are there any engine mounts that will work without custom ones being fabbed up, and are there any other serious considerations in doing this?

and no, im absolutely not interested in fixing up a 4g64 or 4g63, this question is about installing a 4g61 *only*. thanks :tonqe:
Author:  CaptainTonus [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Well, the most obvious issue is that the engine and transmission layout in the 3G eclipses is opposite of what any car that came with a 4G61 would be. I would say it's pretty much not possible.
Author:  slowdsm [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
as tonus said.. it wont work.. 4g61 has timing belt on the D/S of the car.. same with the dsm 4g63s (which is why they swap with each other).. the only option other than a rebuild of the 4g64 is a evo 4g63. but that is pricey.


Steve
Author:  Jonnymick [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
ok, thanks for the prompt info guys!! so with custom engine mounts & the engine position reversed, will the engine bolt to the trans?
Author:  installer88 [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Unfortunately the 3G uses an Evo bellhousing bolt pattern and the dsm pattern is slightly different. A custom bellhousing/ adapter would be needed. I am unsure about 4g64 head oiling, but you might be able to put the 3G head on a 61 block. The question then becomes, what timing belt fits for the 16mm less deck height? What I am trying to say, it can be done with a lot of work.
Author:  vicore [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Even with a big amount of custom work - IF you have that trans on the good old sirius 4g61 you will have 5gear that will move your car backwards - the engines rotation has the same direction although they are 180° turned. The engines with the timing belt on passanger side have on shaft less...

And keep in mind that your intake is then radiator side and the exhaust manifold to the firewall.
Author:  Broke4speed [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Not to mention custom axles, brake booster relocation, crossmember modification, etc.

You'd spend months working on it full time, and you'd end up with a backdated, ancient engine.
Author:  Jonnymick [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
lol good to know!

out of curiosity-what would it take to put the 61 in a 2g with a crankwalked 4g63?
Author:  CaptainTonus [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Quote:
out of curiosity-what would it take to put the 61 in a 2g with a crankwalked 4g63?
You should totally take a 2.4 block, put the 4G61 crank in it, use stroker pistons, and have custom rods made that are like 200mm long. You could rev that bitch to 15,000rpm. :lol:

Umm, swapping a 4G61 into a 2g would be exactly the same amount of work as any 6-bolt swap in a 2g. There is a ton of documentation on how to do this on pretty much every DSM forum on the planet.
Author:  Jonnymick [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
lol i thought about puttin the 61 crank in the 64 but wasnt sure itd work, would it?

& what would i do about cams? seems like id need custom cams & with custom rods already, that might be a lotta $4 to spend to end up at 1.8l when id really like somethin *very small*

& whatre the odds the 4g61 crank would fit in a 4g15? :D
Author:  CaptainTonus [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Quote:
lol i thought about puttin the 61 crank in the 64 but wasnt sure itd work, would it?
I don't see why not...
Quote:
& what would i do about cams? seems like id need custom cams & with custom rods already, that might be a lotta $4 to spend to end up at 1.8l when id really like somethin *very small*
Right. There isn't really a valvetrain out there that can handle the sort of RPM that you'd need to turn to make power out of a setup like that, nor is there a transmission that would shift at said RPM, except maybe an auto, but they don't make 7,000rpm stall converters :wink:
Quote:
& whatre the odds the 4g61 crank would fit in a 4g15? :D
No clue on that one. Try it and report back. :P
Author:  Jonnymick [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
id never try for 15k rpms, 10 sure, 12-maybe, but not 15 lol

& the last stage workover on the dsm awd trans offered by Sheptrans (before going to the $7,000-8,000 Dog Box) for the manuals can push over 10k+ rpms-other than those, im yet to find any trans that seems to wanna go over 8k :(

& like i said, its not really a matter of power, its for a great mpg micro-engined weekend cruiser, & maybe to play in the snow in... (i had a buddy with a 4g64 5 speed 3g & im assuming an lsd, & the damn thing got around better in the snow than most of the 4x4s around here when the snow went crazy here in ohio a few years ago).
Author:  CaptainTonus [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Quote:
id never try for 15k rpms, 10 sure, 12-maybe, but not 15 lol
Well yeah, that was just a number that I pulled out of my ass. I don't think anyone has tried to rev any 4G motor past 11-12k.
Quote:
& the last stage workover on the dsm awd trans offered by Sheptrans (before going to the $7,000-8,000 Dog Box) for the manuals can push over 10k+ rpms-other than those, im yet to find any trans that seems to wanna go over 8k :(
Unless Shep is having custom gearsets made that are stronger, I don't see how this would be possible for any extended period of time. I have a really old TRE trans in my car (~10-12 years old), and it shifts great at 9,000rpm.
Quote:
& like i said, its not really a matter of power, its for a great mpg micro-engined weekend cruiser, & maybe to play in the snow in... (i had a buddy with a 4g64 5 speed 3g & im assuming an lsd, & the damn thing got around better in the snow than most of the 4x4s around here when the snow went crazy here in ohio a few years ago).
There are lots of ways to get awesome gas mileage in these cars without using some wacky engine combination. I got 33mpg in my Mirage with a 4G63 swap and a 1g DSM FWD trans & AWD 5th gear. This was just with basic S'AFC + wideband tuning, didn't even have an EPROM ECU in the car. 660cc injectors and a Walbro 190lph pump. A lightweight FWD car with some good tuning will go a long way.
Author:  Broke4speed [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
The biggest change anyone can make to their MPG is to alter their driving style to suit. Small displacement helps, but it's not always necessary.

I was able to squeak 5L/100km (47mpg) out of an automatic 2000 Saturn (1.9 SOHC), and they're DEFINITELY not rated for that. Just by staying a bit under the limit so I could remain steady state throttle at all times. Nothing more.

Still, I'm not going to swap out my 1.6, lol. I plan to drive it like I've got 10 minutes to get to a booty call that's 30 min away ;).
Author:  CaptainTonus [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4g64/4g61 compatibility question
Quote:
Still, I'm not going to swap out my 1.6, lol. I plan to drive it like I've got 10 minutes to get to a booty call that's 30 min away ;).
I would have kept the 1.6 in mine if it didn't have a dead cylinder when I bought it. Rebuilding it made absolutely no sense. The difference in torque going to the 2.0 was absolutely mind-blowing.
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