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4G61T with 4G63T ECU runs but ticks and resets MPI relay
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Author:  Flying Eagle [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  4G61T with 4G63T ECU runs but ticks and resets MPI relay
So, my project was almost completed and by that, I mean minutes away from double checking the oil and voila, there it is; the dreaded tick appears!

The dash confirmed what 8+ months of storage had kept me from knowing about the condition of my 1G ECU; it was failing or so I think.

Car was running when I got the motor running (without a hitch at the time), once everything was bolted into place and I had cranked it long enough to get some oil into the turbo housing. This is only the 3rd. 4th. 5th and 6th time I had the car running since it got stored and pulled apart in my garage facility, so I figure the ECU is going to the ghost house soon. I haven't pulled the case yet, no time tonight, but if the car was running:

The dash would click - the motor and all electronics would cut momentarily - then the mpi relay (I assume) would kick back in and the car would stumble back to life. The car isn't stalling but it would stall coming off the highway when I first got it. Should I just get another 1G ECU or should I grab an eprom? I saved a bundle on my car insurance by switching to Geico (lol - not true!), and by getting my calipers to actually slide on their top mounts, so there is $300 CDN left over right now to work with.

Anyone have any thoughts. I have only been fortunate enough to have been plagued with the OOPS 4g15 ECU failure 1 time so my experience with the 4g6x stuff is lacking here. I believe I have reasoned myself to the right spot so far but I only diagnosed this in my mind in like 5 seconds before shutting off the car. Anyone save their ECU at this point(bearing in mind that the case hasn't even been opened yet)? I won't try to cure an ECU that is truly fried, I like my engine to stay running GUARANTEED, while bootin' down the road.
Author:  Crackerman [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:05 am ]
Post subject: 
remove the ecu, remove the case and check for leaking capacitors, i have $20 that says they are leaking, if you can solder, do it yourself for about $5, or have a computer shop do it, but they will require you left arm and leg and yor firstborn as collateral.
Author:  colt-r-old [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
That ecu came out of my Talon parts car...strange. The talon ran MINT before I pulled it.
It's a possibility that when Sean switched the cases he surged the board by not grounding himself.

The car will stumble if theres an ignition problem or timing is horibble.
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good to know Dom, I pulled the case out today and snapped some pics which I may be able to get a hold of a little later. Sure enough, the caps were replaced - but the traces on the top section weren't dabbed with solder along the stem of the caps to the little copper edging; in fact most of the top holes weren't done properly?! There is evidence that the large Diode isn't having a fun time of things, and a couple surface mount resistors got some burn action going on. I hate the smell of seafood first thing in the morning.

What I would like to do is set myself up with a (!G if possible) 2.0L EPROM ECU and get it to do this much on a 1.6L motor:

450cc
1G MAF

When I get a chip burned, I would like to go to:

550cc or 510cc (range) due to the chip being adapted to this differing from the 2g setup
2G MAF

I have a 2G MAF stockpiled in anticipation of the later Eprom chip but figure that 510cc injectors may run cheaper than the 550s.

Can just the 1G Eprom ECU and properly equipped chip handle a proper idle for a 4g61T with cams and all the 1G equipment minus the TB? I do have the VR4 US spec intercooler in the mix too, fuel (Walbro 255) pump to be added to faciliate the 2G MAF install.

If anyone who has blazed a similar path could guide me here, I know you guys have seen the drawbacks (due to timing irregularities and such) and the upsides to simplicity starting at the factory pieces. Any technical wisdom with technical guarantees is greatly appreciated. Sigh, my car has run for a total of 45 minutes to far. :alright:
Author:  colt-r-old [ Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is a proven set-up

550cc
1G FPR
1G fuel pump
2G maf

No tuning is required. The 2g maf flows 20% more, as do the 550's. It will balance itself out.
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
So, it runs and idles with the best of them or it runs and will still (regardless) need to be taken to the dyno to see where an AFC could come in handy in this respect? I want a straight line path to using factory stuff that is easy enough to find and use with my logger. I forget too many details as things go along, so simplicity can sometimes be the key to succes in this respect.

I'm working on a 1G or if best 2G Eprom right now - with socket setup before it hits Canadian soil.
Author:  colt-r-old [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:47 am ]
Post subject: 
No tuning is required.

If you want to make such good power, you should have just rebuilt a 2.0l. They're easy to find for under 150 in need of a rebuild.
Author:  xlr8 [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah sure it will *run* therefore not *requiring* a tune but your guess is as good as mine as to what AFRs you'll be running. The ECU is in open-loop and ignoring the O2 sensor everywhere it matters so you can forget about that doing anything except attempting to correct your cruise mixtures.

So after spending all that time rebuilding your car go ahead and dump what amounts to completely unknown ECU programming in it...NOT!

I think the first serious mod I lined up for the 4G61T Excel was an aftermarket ECU given how critical tuning is to making power and promoting engine life.

I'd suggest no matter which way you go that you either invest in some dyno time or buy yourself a wideband O2 sensor. (Dont buy the Innovate WB get the Techedge "DIY-WB" kit instead since it can handle both the cheap Bosch sensor and the expensive NTK item). That will at least show you how bad (or good) what you end up with is.

PS. Just about any interceptor AFC-only device you care to name (eg Apexi SAFC) will absolutely screw your ignition tables with larger injectors. The way they compensate for larger injectors is by decreasing the MAFS frequency count thereby fooling the ECU into providing less pulse width to the injectors. Problem is that when you hit boost the ECU still assumes you are in vacuum and the ignition timing is too aggressive causing detonation which you have to cover by adding more fuel which decreases torque...its a vicious circle.
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Points well taken from my end there xlr8. I'm leaning heavily towards the 2G ECU with a socketted setup because it can be fooled with (coding) to adapt in a factory sense, to the expanded fuel tables and to handle the larger injectors. Obviously, a motor with too many modifications based on size and what affect that has on the bottom/top end power, will always play havoc with certain setups but, I have stock 1G turbo cams and all the 1G hardware installed right now. When the car has a proper ECU, it will fire very early in the crank cycle and run like a champ; I agree however that running like a champ for a modified motor only comes with that title when you have dialled everything in properly with an aftermarket ECU/standalone setup. We'll leave it at driveable, with room for improvement for now.

On the point of the AFC, I understand what you are saying there. I have seen quite a few post on the DSM boards where guys were running the large turbos, and they were getting 20+ degrees of timing at base points :o because of what they had done to modify the Hz signal via the AFC installed inline.

So, I figure (due to financial constraints) my best option to replace a burned ECU is to get an Eprom unit.
I am leaning towards a tuned chip that will make use of partly what is listed in the link below. I'm not going racing so forget the NLTS and all that fuss.
http://www.dsmchips.com/stage3.htm
The link details and corroberates what xlr8 was saying about the piggyback methods of fooling the ECU to use bigger injectors. With a little experimentation between myself and a familiar chip maker (lol-you know you are!) I should be able to dial out alot of the gremlins involved with the idle setup, and then when the money permits and the time line is closer to the spring season, invest in some more tuning equipment *READ* wideband.

I don't want to be guessing what kind of stress my valves would be under with all the extra fuel a 2G setup can dump without tuning to accomodate. When I get this thing running I don't want intermittent stalling, black smoke (except under the lead foot dump), and an ECU that is just swinging the 02 signal around like soap on a rope; this must run properly and have some longevity. I don't strictly drive cars, I drive with my reputation on my shoulders. -=sigh=-
Author:  colt-r-old [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
You are taking this to a level that it does not need to be taken too.
Why would you get a 2G eprom? Youll have to change all your electronics to make it work. You're forgetting youre 90' based, only 91-94 guys can use 2g eprom, even then it's a mess because the computers have different timing and fuel maps.



IF I were you. Get a 90' EPROM ECU or a 4G61T eprom or even a N/A 90' Eprom and solder the knock sensor socketry into the board.

With the eprom you can either get a custom chip by keydiver ($$$$$ expensive as hell) or get dsmlink (also expensive as hell)


Have you ever read anything about the 6bolt into a 2G swap? It's a mess. They need to use the Hall Effect cam angle sensor, if they don't, they have ignition problems. They also MUST use an eprom or else won't run properly. Almost all of them run DSMLink.
Author:  dsmturbo [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Flying Eagle, I just purchased a programmer if you ever want to burn a eprom. you could send me the Bin and I could burn and send back. But I am in Airdrie Alberta

I have most of same questions as you in my post
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
I had almost forgotten about some of that stuff colt-r, I'm all up in the air at this point. I want the best thing for my little 1.6T, so I'm trying to be picky. I am a self proclaimed and induced "airhead" sometimes when faced with decisions I haven't already sorted out in advance before slapping down a money card or the like. Must be the anticipation of having all my shLt together and finished, but now with no computer to go anywhere with it! :hm:

Okay, I have a chip guy covered (Thank for the offer dsmturbo but I've got this one covered - I'll keep in mind that there are other guys out there that can do this stuff.) and can probably grab a 90 Eprom to match my electronics setup.

What is the most recommended path we have do add to the effectiveness of the 90 ECU architecture and how can we manipulate it to accomodate my current setup? I am referring to the chip settings themselves ..... there was no real front page 1G type references on what they do and how to modify their code; everything was mostly 2G stuff. My chip guy may know more than I have asked him, to this point. Any thoughts on what to do guys? Your thoughts will translate directly into a burned chip setup, so fire away.

Stock 1.6T engine assembly with ARP studs, 14b, 450, 1G ECU and MAF hacked tunnel rams, all upgrade 1G 2.0L components minus the TB from the 2.0L.

Upgrades may include the 2G MAF and 550cc injectors in time, depending on how I hate/love my gas mileage next summer.

Good reference for what can be done to the 90 ECU Eprom setup.
http://users.wpi.edu/~ktarry/dsmtech/dsmromedit.html
I need help somewhat deciding upon what to do. I'm not building a foot-to-the-floor racer, and in fact my foot rarely ever hits the floor.
Author:  colt-r-old [ Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:07 am ]
Post subject: 
If you're chip guy doesn't know what he's doing then just go to the pros. Keydiver. All you do is tell them you have a 1G 2.0L youre running a 2g maf and 550's and they'll burn the custom chip. They can even get rid of the phantom knock issue.

You can picky all you want, but you said money is an issue and you're forgetting a simple solution can easily be the best one.


People have problems running a stock 1g ecu with 2g maf and 550's.

My friend did it for 6 months before he sold his car for a faster one.


Read the dsm baords man, 2g/550cc combo is good.
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Anyway you look at it, to burn a chip is to attempt the best repair without having seen proven results on this combo. Don't get me wrong, we have members here who have had lots of great results with tuning gear and 550 2G stuff, that is not my point. When you get a guy who can supply chips based on what the first one was burned to accomodate, then you can play with things a little bit. Until all is said and done with acquiring this Eprom unit and we get some chips in it, I don't think we can say too much until I figure out if my 1G MAf is too hacked, or if the money is there for the 550's before the car goes into storage.

This is a link list to the 3 photos I took of the ECU I pulled out.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Okay, I'l stop talking to myself in a second here, I just uploaded some comparison pics showing my 1.6T board, and the 2.0T board that is severely ailing. :) Should I use the 1.6T board to socket ? Are the maps configurable by a chip burner setup? I've got questions for the chip guy.
P.S. The chip guy supports this site, and coincidentally I support him, so we all get to hang around a little longer. :twisted:
Comparison photos:
Comparison shot
The 1.6 board looks like it came out of the factory yesterday, but there is evidence of minor cap leakage - but no smell.
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