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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:28 am 
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I've got a quick question for you guys. I'm not entirely sure what section this should go in, it's for a van but it's more awd specific. I've got a 90 colt vista, I think I'm actually the 3rd owner from this board but I'll go into the story of the car itself in it's own thread here soon. The engine is a 6 bolt 4g63 sohc mated to a km182 awd transmission. Does anyone know if I can use an awd dsm flywheel and clutch assembly on this combo?

I've done a bit of research and been swaping some of my dsm stuff on the car already. The block itself is a standard 6 bolt but everything is a little bit different on it. The transmission is very different. I am confident the flywheel will bolt onto the crank fine. From searching on the autozone website the part #s for the clutches are different but the throw out bearings are the same.

Here is the info on the clutches

Vista: Disc outside diameter 8 1/2", spline inside diameter 7/8", spline count 20

DSM: Disc outside diameter 8 7/8", spline inside diameter 7/8 ", spline count 20

So the transmission input shaft appears to be the the same too. The 3/8" difference in the disc shouldn't matter because I plan to use the ACT dsm flywheel I have. I just don't know if there are any clearance issues or depth variance or flywheel diameter / tooth count differences as well. I do have a dsm starter as well if it turns out that could bolt up too.

I'm guessing I'll have to pull it apart and see how things look myself and go from there, I was just checking if there was anyone with any km182 knowledge or experience here by any chance first.

I'd rather not have the car down too long though and I'd need to custom order any vista specific stuff. I would also like to beat on it a bit more and the 2600 setup will probably stand up a bit better than a stock replacement clutch.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:21 am 
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I doubt anyone has ever tried to do this, but I bet it would work. You may need a 1g AWD starter plate, but I have no idea if they're different.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:47 pm 
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Don't put such a heavy pressure plate behind such a tame motor.

I suggest maybe a step towards the 2100 or lower pressure rated plates.

Keep the heavy flywheel if you like being able to maintain low speeds, stop and go traffic, etc.

Maybe a shaved flywheel but nothing in the 8.5lb territory.

This is assuming it all fits.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:39 am 
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Ditto on keeping the heavier flywheel, you'll need that momentum to get the awd moving.

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:09 am 
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Wow, thanks for the quick responses guys. I guess I'm sort of pioneering here but it seems like most of you guys here started out that way with most of these cars and swaps huh?

It has been pointed out to me by mitsubishikid that there are no steps on the stock km flywheel like the dsm flywheel.

Stock km

Image

Dsm 2600

Image

My hope is that the difference in the flywheels is also mirrored in the pressure plates in an equal and opposite way. Maybe this will work but maybe the depth is going to be too far off.

I am mostly planning this based off parts that I already have. Which is an awd dsm 6 bolt ACT chromemoly flywheel, 2600 pressure plate,awd starter and plate.

I'm gonna pull it apart to at least replace the grinding throw out bearing and see what condition the rest of the clutch is in at that point and see what will fit from the dsm bin. I'll keep you all posted with pics n stuff in case this might be useful information to anyone else in the future.

As for the concerns for driveability my last car was an mr2 with a 2900 and I've driven several talons with the same 2600, awd and fwd. The awd with this very same flywheel on the same 2l engine. The stock one actually bothers me the most, I almost can't feel it at all with heavy shoes on, it's like trying to regulate the clutch engagement waving my foot around in the air. Also the km gearing is even lower than the awd dsms, it's just about 5:1 first gear, it's lower than reverse. I can't imagine anything bogging it down, I can spin all the wheels through most of first on a decent launch with 88 hp. On an unrelated note I have no idea why the clutch is going out.

On the power issue, I was into this engine like 3 days after I got it, the bottom end is identical to the 6 bolt dsm 4g63 tank, it's just got no oil squirters and a sohc. I am seriously planning to fabricate a bracket where the a/c compressor was to mount an eaton m62 blower I got off a bonneville. I also have a megasquirt 3 almost setup and a custom crank trigger mounted to read off the now unused balance shaft drive sprocket on the crank. This is all a bit much to go into so i should probably start a new build thread or something about all that with pictures if you guys are interested. My main focus right now is just fixing the clutch issues and hopefully putting something a bit more robust in there for my future plans.

But I have a related question about the clutch itself if this actually works, does anyone have any input or experience on km182 breakage? The 2 friction discs I have available are a used organic street disc and an almost new unsprung 6 puck.

Also has anyone got any opinions or experience with a setup such as this?

http://grannys.tripod.com/hillbillyclutchslipper.html

It seems like just the thing for launching a manual awd to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:39 am 
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Tiburons had something like that, a built in pressure valve in the reservoir that would delay full engagement and slip the clutch as it came back out. The problem is that is doesn't let you speed shift and Hyundai did a lot of clutch replacements under warranty. We ended up removing the valve from my friend's car. It's all on the personal preference though. I like having full control over everything drivetrain related so something like that would drive me nuts. I'd just get a sprung clutch and drop it all day long at the track. Then it becomes a question of how strong that km182 is. :rolleyes:

Did you consider swapping a W5M33 into it? It should bolt up to the trans, not sure about the axles though.

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:50 am 
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Image

That's my main issue with a trans swap at the moment. This is currently my daily and I'm just looking to play around with setting up the megasquirt and blower with the stock drivetrain for now. That is my first major project for this car, a w4a33 though not that W5M33 junk. :( I know the 5 spd purists are gonna hate me but I've seen too many busted up tansmissions, unless you are just spinning those gearsets are just not meant for any kind of serious torque.

Regardless of my affinity for the auto, the main problem is the km layout in this car sets the transfercase ABOVE the subframe. The W5M33 / w4a output shaft goes UNDER the front diff and driver side intermediate shaft. I think I'm going to need to build a custom subframe for that swap. It's funny, its the same 4g63. it's alreay awd and the transmssion is whats throwing a wrench in the works. I'm still not sure why the same year colt wagon variants other than the vista and later models all had the w5m variants but they made a custom transmission and front suspension for this year and model. It does have a bunch of ground clearance and the bottom of the oil pan very well protected unlike all the dsm style low slung layouts. I will challenge any 2nd gen summits to a rock crawling contest, I guess they built it to drag the front over rocks. I also have no idea why there's a giant u joint in the intermediate shaft. I feel like maybe this whole trans swap thing is perhaps new thread worthy though, I'm just looking to put a clutch in the car atm.

The thing about that slipper design is you would set it up to slip only enough to dampen a hard launch and not bog the engine. Its a very specific rate of engagment happening over a fraction of a second, I don't know if that level of slip would even be perceptible in normal driving OTHER than to make it pretty much impossible to shock load the transmission. I don't know if it's just the chassis rigidity is better in the dsms but I know if I shift quickly in this car and don't slip the clutch just a tad where most fwd or rwd cars would chirp the tires this car just grabs and makes the whole car flex and shudder like I was in a minor car accident. I can't imagine that will get better with bigger tires and a stronger clutch and more power. I think the saving grace of the dsm layout is the center diff being open with a slow as piss reacting vcu. You need to slip the front wheels a bit before it really starts to lock and send power to the back. This lets you dump the clutch allot harder because the front grip limitation and vcu is the fuse or damper in the system. If you weld the breakage prone center diff or put a very rare kaaz in the center this doesn't happen anymore. Then you're on a fine line between 4 wheel skating spinning all the tires and breaking transmission or drivetrain parts. It's extremely difficult to accurately slip a high power high grip manual car. This just lets you dial that in perfectly.

I don't have the center diff welded in this car, I just don't have one at all. The rear output is direct 4x4 with an external vcu in the middle of the driveshaft.

Image

Again possibly another subject matter entirely yet still awd related. The vcu is way tighter than any dsm I've ever had too. I think because it's lived behind an 88 hp engine and it was probably mostly only tested in the snow and ice in low traction conditions. This car transitions to rwd power on oversteer remarkably quickly. I probably wouldn't have been beating on it so much if it wasn't so damn fun, it's like ricer fwd burnout transitioning to awd rally driftcar. My talon NEVER reacted like this thing does. It's hysterical it looks like an 80's minivan. My last daily was a 400 hp mr2 with 265 555s in the back with the engine sitting on them. I absolutely promise the vista corners harder on snow tires if you really bully it. Of course the mr2 tries to murder you if you bully it in corners so its just plain more enjoyable too.


Last edited by timiacobucci on Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:43 pm 
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You're in unfamiliar territory, definitely start a build thread and keep us updated. Tuners doesn't allow hotlinking so your images don't show.

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:28 pm 
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Working now?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:56 pm 
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Yes.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:54 pm 
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Have you considered the 215mm clutches/pp combos act sells? It may work with your flywheel. I put one of these into a km206/f5m201(?). I think the PP was a rated as a 1900.

_________________
05 wrx wagon
99 Benz ML 320
91 eagle summit swapped - 6/4 bolt combo
94 Audi s4 - sold
88 Eagle Vista Turbo LX sedan, RIP


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:39 pm 
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The happy administrator
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That's a pretty weird driveshaft. There's no adjustable ride height is there?

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:51 am 
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You think that's weird take a look at the back,

Image
Quote:
Have you considered the 215mm clutches/pp combos act sells? It may work with your flywheel. I put one of these into a km206/f5m201(?). I think the PP was a rated as a 1900.
What is the application it's listed for? Does the pressure plate look flush like the the first picture I posted?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:00 pm 
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Some call me a god

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Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Check for 4g6x dohc n/a engine application or the DSM 1.8 application. IIRC only the turbo 4g63 uses the stepped flywheel.

_________________
05 wrx wagon
99 Benz ML 320
91 eagle summit swapped - 6/4 bolt combo
94 Audi s4 - sold
88 Eagle Vista Turbo LX sedan, RIP


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:16 pm 
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C53a 4g61t with a KM210 5 speed, used a flat flywheel too. 215mm, down 10mm from the DSM FWD stuff.


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