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 Post subject: Sonata 4g63 differences
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:35 pm 
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I'm searching for some information about the 1.6l 4g63 that came in early sonatas. I believe that I have a motor out of one, and I notice some minor differences from a 6 bolt 4g63 out of a dsm. First off the main caps are individual, meaning it has five caps instead of 3. I can't seem to note any other differences this sonata block even has the 4g63 stamp on it.

The head that was on the motor was stamped as a 1.6L. Visually I can't see any differences from the 2.0L head that I have. Obviously the combustion chamber would be a little smaller on the 1.6L head, but I'm wondering if there is any difference in valves or springs in these heads.

Just looking for some information, maybe someone around here has experience with this certain model car. I believe they are referred to as J1, 1990-95 Sonatas. If anyone knew specific details on the differences in these motors it would put my mind at ease. I had the hyudai block and head cleaned up and machined, the machine shop ordered me eagle rods and wiseco pistons. They balanced the bottom end and didn't note of any problems, I'm guessing that the stroke and bore of these motors are the same. They also rebuilt the head by replacing the valve guides, and grinded the new valves and seats. I'm assuming that the parts would work in both different motors (sonata 4g63 vs dsm 4g63) or the machine shop would of noticed.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:30 pm 
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J1 was the Elantra, maybe that transfers over also. Elantras ran in that model from 92-94.5, and then wiring and ECU's started to change.
Would help to see some pics of the parts and car.
That being said, you have a 1.6L head, which should have small intake ports like an EVO3/2G head setup. If the block is stamped 4g63, then it should be a 4g63, 2.0L bottom end. You have 2.0L of displacement and a lower CC head, than the stock DSM 2.0L came with.
So, assuming this motor with pistons that are identical in shape to a stock 90-94, will have 7.8-8.0:1 compression ratio. Do you know what pistons came to you and what compression ratio they are supposed to yield in a stock 90 or 91+ DSM motor/head combo?
I assume the engine block has no oil squirters installed at the base near where the pistons stop on lower travel?

I am not sure if the main caps are going to make a huge difference, but there is a reason they mated the main caps into a series of 3 versus 5, and that is for strength like webbing in a block. The more points of supporting intersection, the stronger something, inherently, is supposed to be.
Not sure what head those Sonata's were supposed to come with, but being that 1.6 and 1.8L engine options came with 1.6L and 1.8L head respectively, should stand to reason that the head in your motor is not the original part designed for that car, from the factory. I could be barking up the wrong tree, but you never know what Hyundai was doing with all those spare Mitsu parts they were using in their engine bays. Mitsu floated Hyundai for quite some time, with Mitsu motors in Hyundai cars/trucks.

I say grab a Cyclone intake manifold, epoxy the runners in the Cyclone to mate to the 1.6L head and you will have an intake matched set that will flow much like a 2G head; with a little work. Lancerman did just that, and made some crazy good numbers. Tons of research and trial and error went into it too.

Anyways, I'm chatting your ear off and trying my best not to make any mistakes while writing this all down.

Keep us posted.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:08 am 
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The way this motor came about was out of a non running 91 talon I bought a couple years back. The head gasket was toast and the ring landing was broken on one piston. This was my first venture into dsms and I didn't know any different, I thought it was supposed to belong in my car. I did notice that the motor was previously rebuilt at some point, it had stock .20 over pistons in it when I took it apart. No oil squirters either, but I didn't notice till after it visited the machine shop.

The machine shop ordered .40 over wiseco pistons, I pretty sure the CR is 8.3:1. I'll have to find the invoice from the machine shop to tell you exactly what all work they preformed. I kind of regret dumping money into this block and head now that I have a couple 6 bolt engines sitting around. I may just try to run a 1g 2.0 head on the block considering I've already purchased a somewhat decent piston and rod combo.

I'm planning on rebuilding one of my engines back to stock, so since the 1.6 head is ready to go I will most likely use it. I have 2 talons sitting around, they both need motors. One of them is fwd so I don't plan to do anything too crazy with it, stock motor and a 20g is all I have plans for. Eventually I plan on ditching the fwd talon so I can supply parts for a csm swap, I feel like the talon gets too much attention.

I appreciate your chatter it is very informative for me! I always browsed around here but never felt like I had much to contribute, so that's when I shut up and listen. I will look into the cyclone intake modification, thanks for bringing that up. I will compare the head with a stock intake gasket and take a picture for you, you probably can point the differences out a lot better. Here's a couple pictures of the block and head that I currently have on hand.

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Here you can faintly see the 1.6 stamp on the side of the head.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:45 am 
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If you know for certain that the car is a 1.6l then it is definitely not a 4g63 or the Hyundai equivalent. The engine code tag is on the front of the engine underneath the #1 and #2 cylinder exhasut port. See here:Image

Some cleaning may be necessary to see what is stamped there but you should see "G4CR" crudely stamped onto that tag. Here is a list of the corresponding engine codes between Hyundai and Mitsubishi:http://www.4gtuner.com/topic/21041-hyun ... uivalants/

I doubt that it has the lower 7.8:1 compression that is seen in the turbo application 4g63. As the car would not have come from the factory with a turbocharger it likely has a compression ratio of 9:1. Having said that there is the remote possibility, as Flying Eagle said, that you have a strange combination between the head and block and could actually have a compression ratio that is not expected. The only absolute way to know is to see that engine code on the block, determine whether your intake runners are the large or small ports then check the volume on your combustion chamber.

Ultimately the entire exercise is moot if you are returning the engine to the car from which it came and was operating in. If you are looking to use the engine in a performance application and will be utilizing equipment that allows you change fuel and timing parameters in combination with an air/fuel ratio monitoring device then knowing the exact engine configuration will help with the initial setup of your "tune" but will not be of much use there after.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Please note that the OP's follow-uo post with the pics was not showing when I typed my reply.

That is definitely a 2.0l 4g63 with individual main caps. The head is still a crap shoot.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:38 pm 
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I took some pictures of the the 1.6l head and a 2.0 head I had sitting around for comparison.

Some things that I noticed were different:
The intake ports are pretty much the same size when compared with a gasket
The exhaust ports are slightly smaller when compared with a gasket
The HLA is slightly different looking between the two heads, but both heads look to have the same oil holes where the HLA bolts on
The surface of the head where it meets with the block is slightly different as well. The 1.6L head is missing a few ports on the intake side of the head. However the stock head gasket that I have doesn't have these holes the 2.0 head has anyways. I'll let the pictures do the talking.

The intake ports are visually the same on both heads, this is the 1.6L intake port with a gasket for comparison.
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The exhaust ports are visually different, the top is the 1.6L. The 2.0 port looks a lot more uniform, however it may just look different because the 2.0 head is still dirty.
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The differences in HLAs between the two, 1.6 on top.
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Here's the HLAs taken off and the ports underneath.
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The combustion chamber on the 1.6L head is visually smaller as well. On the 2.0 head the gasket meets the edges of the combustion chamber all the way around. Here is a picture of the extra material between each chamber with a HG for comparison.
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Here is a view of the deck on each head, you can see the extra ports on the dirty 2.0 head. You can also see a slight difference in the shape of the 1.6 combustion chamber compared to the 2.0.
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A better side view of the head on the thermostat housing side.
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The last difference that I noticed was this, the 2.0 journal looks to have more material.
1.6
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Thanks guys really appreciate your input, not looking for any definite answers or anything like that. Just figure this could be an interesting topic, and sort of a way to introduce myself. All opinions are welcome if I wasted money because of my lack of knowledge the so be it, at least I learned something from it!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:05 pm 
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The last two pictures are not of true journals for the camshafts. The cams do not actually touch the parts of the heads that were pictured.

Where did you get this engine from? Any history you were given with the engine?

Honestly, from the differences in the block and how rough and unfinished that head looks I question the origin of this engine. Barring Japan the entire eastern coast of Asia is known for copying, usually poorly, or stealing technology and product design.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:33 pm 
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I acquired this engine when I bought my first dsm, I was 17 and had no experience with these cars at all. The guy who sold me it didn't tell much at all, he claimed all the car needed was a HG. I was kind of stupid at the time, I really wanted the car and thought I could put it back together fairly easy. I didn't worry about receipts or anything like that, but he seemed to think that it was a completely stock engine. When I took it apart I noticed a few things suggesting otherwise. It had arp head studs and rod bolts, the balance shafts were deleted.

I'm wondering if someone purchased a "jdm" motor and rebuilt it at some point. It is quite interesting to me though, and I can completely believe the possibility of it being a knock off mitsu part. I've seen many pictures of cars that have been blatantly copied and sold in over there. The exterior of these cars clearly shows your point, they are generally ugly cheap looking recreations of more popular western cars.

Here's a picture of the talon that the motor came out of.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:38 pm 
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That is a good looking car. You definitely weren't stupid for buying it as no one would have been able to determine exactly what the engine was just by looking at it as installed in the car.

The JDM engines have cleaner castings and mains that are connected at journals 1 and 2 then 4 and 5. I actually have a g4cp and it is functionally and aesthetically identical to every 4g63 that I have owned.

As you have already sent the block off to a machinist and now have a 2.0l head I would say you are good to go. Is this engine to be installed back into the black 1g?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:29 pm 
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I actually bought the car at night, I didn't exactly know what shape that the body was in when I purchased it. I defiantly got lucky that it is pretty clean and straight for the most part. I'm sure that the bfg drag radials and rims that were on it are worth about what I picked up the car for. I paid $1200 for it, but wasn't till after I realized that fast isn't cheap. This project has kind of been put on the back burner for a while, I'm slowly acquiring parts for a build. My goal is 500hp but I don't want to cut corners or cheap out, I imagine it will be a few more years before it's back together.

In the meantime while I'm acquiring parts I picked up two fwd talons. I pieced together one car out of the two of them this summer. After I got it running I threw on a 20g, ecmlink, and injectors. It was pretty fun for a couple months while it lasted. The rear main seal went and oil started leaking on the clutch, causing it to slip at high rpm. I plan to rebuild a stock block for it and start looking a little harder for a csm or old excel to eventually swap. This stock motor is what I may use the 1.6 head on.

This car is mostly just to tie me over until I can put my black talon together. The setup is relatively simple, anti surge 20g, 4'' fp intake, 2g mas, 850cc injectors, ecmlink v3 lite, vrsf fmic, afpr & rewired 255, 3" exhaust, and an open dump o2.

Here's a picture of my half white, half primer car haha:
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A picture of the bay as it currently sits.
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And last my 20g compared to the 14b I pulled off.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:24 pm 
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Another difference I just noticed on that engine block is the "4G63" stamping is wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Compared to my other block and yeah it is stamped wrong. The letters on my known 6 bolt block are more uniform, they're placed farther to the left on the block. The letters are also more elongated, they have a special font to them. The letters on my block look more like someone had a hammer and stamp.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Well, here is what is known:

Mitsu type block sporting 2.0L displacement given the crank being used (bore that is now 0.040" over?)
Block uses NA style main caps
No oil squirters
Head stamped 1.6L (turbo or not, it's functionally the same)

Forget what type of car this motor came from, it could have been assembled off the shelf by anyone at any time. Just know what you have and what you need to do to it.

What mods to the balance shaft areas have been made or do you plan to run?
Modded shaft? Spin the bearings 180?

Looks like everything should be fine, it's just a matter of knowing what you have and how much power it can be expected to hold/crank will take.

Lots of people don't use squirters, as their piston design and engine/knock management systems (READ Meth/Water/Alky) injection will help reduce temps and keep things sane for the aluminum.

What are your power goals? I can't see this motor having a problem until into the higher power and REV ranges simultaneously. I could not tell you what threshold though... Just some benchtop racing on that last observation.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Quote:
Well, here is what is known:

Mitsu type block sporting 2.0L displacement given the crank being used (bore that is now 0.040" over?)
Block uses NA style main caps
No oil squirters
Head stamped 1.6L (turbo or not, it's functionally the same)

Forget what type of car this motor came from, it could have been assembled off the shelf by anyone at any time. Just know what you have and what you need to do to it.

What mods to the balance shaft areas have been made or do you plan to run?
Modded shaft? Spin the bearings 180?

Looks like everything should be fine, it's just a matter of knowing what you have and how much power it can be expected to hold/crank will take.

Lots of people don't use squirters, as their piston design and engine/knock management systems (READ Meth/Water/Alky) injection will help reduce temps and keep things sane for the aluminum.

What are your power goals? I can't see this motor having a problem until into the higher power and REV ranges simultaneously. I could not tell you what threshold though... Just some benchtop racing on that last observation.
Yes everything that you said is correct for the block, .40" over however I will most likely use a 2.0 head in the end once fully assembled. I have new balance shaft bearings I plan to install 180 out, and a grooved oem stub shaft for the oil pump.

I have considered an injection system to help counter any knock I will run into, however that is quite a ways down the road for my car currently. Another thing I need to take into account would be the availability of e85. Currently the area I live in doesn't have an e85 pump for about 50 miles or so, but I do plan to move within the next year or two.

I eventually would like to be in the neighborhood of 500hp. I still have a lot to learn and purchase before I ever come close to my goal. I don't have plans to rev much higher then the stock limits, 8000-8500 however I am yet to purchase any springs or cams.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and findings with me.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Forgive me if I missed it but does that block have a 6 bolt crank?

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