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 Post subject: Sedan C62A Coilovers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:41 am 
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I'm doing a restomod on my 1991 Lancer GTI Sedan and I think I'd like to go for coilovers so I can easily raise and adjust the ride height.

Are there any coilovers that are direct bolt on without modifications to the Sedan?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:18 am 
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Bump.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:56 am 
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I think you can make the CD9A/CE9A coilovers work on your C62A, but I'm not too sure...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:30 am 
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Quote:
I think you can make the CD9A/CE9A coilovers work on your C62A, but I'm not too sure...
Unfortunately the tops are different.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:38 pm 
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Are the sedan suspensions different in the rear?
Comparing FWD, solid twist beam rear axle cars, both C50 hatch and C60 sedans.

If they are the same as C50 hatches, then KSports for the 1988-1992 model would work.
Others are using these on the hatches, but I cannot say they use them on the sedan. Brake line brackets need special fitment at the front, rears not an issue because they don't attach anywhere on the shock body.

Cost is around $1170 US plus shipping from Mainland USA. They take 2-3 weeks to build and ship to the US and then they ship direct to the customer. Don't point and click on the site, talk to Eric Dayton or email him and work out payment. Site cost is $1300 US. Hotbits may build something for you, they are closer in Thailand and sites all over the world, likely Philipines too. Check their site. Cost is double or more what the KSport Kontrol Plus list for. $1170 is Minimum Advertised Price per KSport/Eric when I ordered. ALL online vendors of KSport listing lower prices, but they will drop ship and come back asking for more money! Buy direct if you can and do go this route.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:20 pm 
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I've never seen a 3G CSM Hatch up close and personal. Are you saying I'd only need to modify the brake line mounts for the fronts and nothing else?

I'm not sure if the rear hatch and sedan mounts are different and I don't have access to a hatchback model to confirm.

Are there any quality and reliability concerns regarding KSport as a brand? I've read things online about the shocks blowing less than a year in. I've already contacted KSport's Eric and i'm waiting for a shipping quote, but I've also located a "distributor/importer" of KSport coilovers locally since they might have a more competitive price. Waiting for a quote from both.

If I can't get the coilovers sorted out then it would be KYB Excel-G shocks with stock springs and hope it won't hit the 17's I'm putting on.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:56 am 
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17" with a proper offset, might work but they are how wide?

I forgot that KSport has local distributors that can offer maybe lower prices than the US distributor and all of their drop shippers! Good news for you.

I can't comment on the reliability of KSports. I bought them out of convenience and the need to replace many lacking aspects of my current setup; weakened/sagging drop springs, shocks that don't like drop springs due to their spring rates sitting at the upper threshold of the valving to be able to control them. I rebuilt my setup last year when the gas tank got refurbished and I found one corner of the car sitting low and was hoping that this alone was the cause of a serious alignment pull that tire swapping did not correct. I have since realigned my poly engine/trans mounts and am in the process of getting the KSports figured out.

I just had a look through ASA, and when I input the C62A chassis and select rear shocks absorbers, the vehicle crossover reference shows both C62A and C52A as being applicable. This means that hatch FWD or sedan FWD, it is the same fitment. Now, in theory this means that K-Sports will fit your sedan, using the hatch model they list on their US site. Take a look at the pictures in my "build" section thread, and you will see what I am dealing with and hoping will fit. Others like "Shawn J" are using KSports, so hopefully my box of parts was picked and assembled properly, as were his. Couple other members here have them also, maybe they will see this and comment. If you search K Sport, KSport" on the site, see who has a name that pops up and contact them via PM. Maybe they can tell you if their suspension looked dimensionally just like mine or not.

Front brake lines, best to either work with bending the supplied brackets to work with custom braided lines with rubber grommet to hold them in place, or re-use the wrap-around mid-height brake line bracket that secures the factory lines directly to the factory strut mounts. Then it is only a matter of properly holding things in place so the lines don't rotate.

Rear lines, same fitment because they don't attach to the strut assembly. If you have drum brakes, then disregard my custom brake line measurements posted on my build sheet, because drums use different lengths of hose. You might as well just use rubber hose replacements to save on cost and frustration, but no reason you can't use braided stainless/teflon core lines, but do the whole system, end to end if you go that route.

Have a read over the suspension threads that Captain Tonus posted in, amongst others, they can tell you what offsets and tires combinations will roughly clear the coil base mounts on factory struts. Tires will change this by a certain degree because all tires have different sidewalls regardless of having matching tread widths to other tires, as well as matching sidewall ratio.

Be advised that going to a short wall tire, and then stiffer coilover suspension will make the car feel very stiff. If you do suspension first, then try wheels/tires in a slightly larger format, you at least get to know what the "seat of the pants" feel is like once the suspension loosens up with use. If the tires are too short and the suspension isn't valved quite right ..... and suspension bushings are old and allow excessive movement (which we know they do), then you can have the tires skipping over the road on side loading and other circumstances.

I should mention that the bottom clevis/clamp on the front KSport struts, does have an elongated hole for camber adjustment, as well as coming with camber adjustable top mounts! Double whammy, all good. This may help others using GVR4 knuckles or similar with massive camber issues; not so much an issue for you.

Excel-G is the replacement for GR2 we all have come to know. They are lifetime warranty, and have never lasted me that long with any combination of lowering spring, before the ride got bouncy. Then I loose the receipts .... only ones I ever seem to misplace from this build.

Also, if ever a shock body lets go (leaks oil/gas) then it is a drop in replacement. Threaded body portions could be another story, but every piece is available separately.

If your roads are not very smooth or you spend a bunch of time in dirt/mud, then maybe avoid coilovers. The piston rods do not come with a provision for a true dust boot. There is a dust boot but it is short and contains the bump stop more than anything. Also, the front strut mounts due allow a little window for water to enter the engine bay, as they do not completely cover the hole for them in the shock tower. Not a big deal, but again, dirty roads/salt and or lots of rainfall (monsoon season?) might be an enemy of the coilover and projected longevity. KSport does not warranty their strut rods for chrome/pitting! So, it says in the literature. They also state their products are for racing only, etc, etc. Makes you feel really good about what you just unboxed and now own. 1 year warranty if member serves .....

I have no road time in my car for the last 2-3 years so I won't ever pretend to know what the chassis will feel like with these installed, but I can tell you that a stiffer spring and valving to control it, will result in a firmer ride. "Bowdown"'s old car is now owned by ModicaUSMC and he had the Road Race coilovers I believe, so have a read through his thread. They might be offered in your area as bowdown had Phillipine contacts/family, but were super stiff. Probably too stiff for normal road use in our cars without seam welding/cage and less plastic interior to rattle around.

Click


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:51 am 
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Quote:
17" with a proper offset, might work but they are how wide?

I forgot that KSport has local distributors that can offer maybe lower prices than the US distributor and all of their drop shippers! Good news for you.

I can't comment on the reliability of KSports. I bought them out of convenience and the need to replace many lacking aspects of my current setup; weakened/sagging drop springs, shocks that don't like drop springs due to their spring rates sitting at the upper threshold of the valving to be able to control them. I rebuilt my setup last year when the gas tank got refurbished and I found one corner of the car sitting low and was hoping that this alone was the cause of a serious alignment pull that tire swapping did not correct. I have since realigned my poly engine/trans mounts and am in the process of getting the KSports figured out.

I just had a look through ASA, and when I input the C62A chassis and select rear shocks absorbers, the vehicle crossover reference shows both C62A and C52A as being applicable. This means that hatch FWD or sedan FWD, it is the same fitment. Now, in theory this means that K-Sports will fit your sedan, using the hatch model they list on their US site. Take a look at the pictures in my "build" section thread, and you will see what I am dealing with and hoping will fit. Others like "Shawn J" are using KSports, so hopefully my box of parts was picked and assembled properly, as were his. Couple other members here have them also, maybe they will see this and comment. If you search K Sport, KSport" on the site, see who has a name that pops up and contact them via PM. Maybe they can tell you if their suspension looked dimensionally just like mine or not.

Front brake lines, best to either work with bending the supplied brackets to work with custom braided lines with rubber grommet to hold them in place, or re-use the wrap-around mid-height brake line bracket that secures the factory lines directly to the factory strut mounts. Then it is only a matter of properly holding things in place so the lines don't rotate.

Rear lines, same fitment because they don't attach to the strut assembly. If you have drum brakes, then disregard my custom brake line measurements posted on my build sheet, because drums use different lengths of hose. You might as well just use rubber hose replacements to save on cost and frustration, but no reason you can't use braided stainless/teflon core lines, but do the whole system, end to end if you go that route.

Have a read over the suspension threads that Captain Tonus posted in, amongst others, they can tell you what offsets and tires combinations will roughly clear the coil base mounts on factory struts. Tires will change this by a certain degree because all tires have different sidewalls regardless of having matching tread widths to other tires, as well as matching sidewall ratio.

Be advised that going to a short wall tire, and then stiffer coilover suspension will make the car feel very stiff. If you do suspension first, then try wheels/tires in a slightly larger format, you at least get to know what the "seat of the pants" feel is like once the suspension loosens up with use. If the tires are too short and the suspension isn't valved quite right ..... and suspension bushings are old and allow excessive movement (which we know they do), then you can have the tires skipping over the road on side loading and other circumstances.

I should mention that the bottom clevis/clamp on the front KSport struts, does have an elongated hole for camber adjustment, as well as coming with camber adjustable top mounts! Double whammy, all good. This may help others using GVR4 knuckles or similar with massive camber issues; not so much an issue for you.

Excel-G is the replacement for GR2 we all have come to know. They are lifetime warranty, and have never lasted me that long with any combination of lowering spring, before the ride got bouncy. Then I loose the receipts .... only ones I ever seem to misplace from this build.

Also, if ever a shock body lets go (leaks oil/gas) then it is a drop in replacement. Threaded body portions could be another story, but every piece is available separately.

If your roads are not very smooth or you spend a bunch of time in dirt/mud, then maybe avoid coilovers. The piston rods do not come with a provision for a true dust boot. There is a dust boot but it is short and contains the bump stop more than anything. Also, the front strut mounts due allow a little window for water to enter the engine bay, as they do not completely cover the hole for them in the shock tower. Not a big deal, but again, dirty roads/salt and or lots of rainfall (monsoon season?) might be an enemy of the coilover and projected longevity. KSport does not warranty their strut rods for chrome/pitting! So, it says in the literature. They also state their products are for racing only, etc, etc. Makes you feel really good about what you just unboxed and now own. 1 year warranty if member serves .....

I have no road time in my car for the last 2-3 years so I won't ever pretend to know what the chassis will feel like with these installed, but I can tell you that a stiffer spring and valving to control it, will result in a firmer ride. "Bowdown"'s old car is now owned by ModicaUSMC and he had the Road Race coilovers I believe, so have a read through his thread. They might be offered in your area as bowdown had Phillipine contacts/family, but were super stiff. Probably too stiff for normal road use in our cars without seam welding/cage and less plastic interior to rattle around.

Click
SLR Been out of town but back now!

The tires fitted are 195/60R14 86H and the 17's to be fitted are 205/40ZR17 84W and the rims size is spec'ed at 17 x 7.0 .. The 17's are coming from the Toyota we are selling but I'll be keeping the original set because sentimental.

Roads are not always smooth and it's most definitely not always dry. What would be a better route than coilovers then?

I'm fitting a caster bar as per recommendation by local owners to prevent the frame from bowing? although I'm not sure where or how that's going to be fitted then a rear strut bar to improve handling.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:24 am 
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Stock suspension is about the only choice for covers that keep all dirt and dust and salt (if you get it on roads/air) from corroding the strut tube shaft (chrome). There are bootie type covers that are made for coilovers, you could always look into that - FEAL has some on their site.
Coilovers will be stiff and feel somewhat stiff as a guess with short side walls on tires.
You will have to check the suspension threads I eluded to earlier for fitment issues on rims offset and tire sizing. Best look is sometimes 15-16". Some guys yes, do go to 17 for wider tire options. This may lead you into fender rolling and such.
Front caster bar, should be called a strut tower brace, whether installed as a front or rear position. YoshiFab was making them at one point, he has a site and it needs to be searched to find Colt/Mirage parts direct. Likely EVO1-3 or Mirage 92-95 can be redrilled to fit the strut tops in the front of the engine bay. Guys here know better than I what fits from the aftermarket/Mitsu vehicles. Something about 2G DSM for the rear .... Hatch. Not sure how the sedan changes because of the parcel tray.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
Stock suspension is about the only choice for covers that keep all dirt and dust and salt (if you get it on roads/air) from corroding the strut tube shaft (chrome). There are bootie type covers that are made for coilovers, you could always look into that - FEAL has some on their site.
Coilovers will be stiff and feel somewhat stiff as a guess with short side walls on tires.
You will have to check the suspension threads I eluded to earlier for fitment issues on rims offset and tire sizing. Best look is sometimes 15-16". Some guys yes, do go to 17 for wider tire options. This may lead you into fender rolling and such.
Front caster bar, should be called a strut tower brace, whether installed as a front or rear position. YoshiFab was making them at one point, he has a site and it needs to be searched to find Colt/Mirage parts direct. Likely EVO1-3 or Mirage 92-95 can be redrilled to fit the strut tops in the front of the engine bay. Guys here know better than I what fits from the aftermarket/Mitsu vehicles. Something about 2G DSM for the rear .... Hatch. Not sure how the sedan changes because of the parcel tray.
So you're saying go with Coilovers and use stock strut covers? We don't really get salt since I don't live anywhere near one but we do get dust and moisture alot. Summer and Rainy season.

I don't want a Front Strut bar since I've read they could induce more understeer while a rear one would cause more oversteer, the caster bar is something that connects somewhere on the bottom of the frame or suspension, i'm not really sure.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have another thread discussing a possible engine swap... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=40683&p=323502#p323502 The price of the overhaul of the 4G15 is near a surplus engine.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:37 pm 
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Coilovers can cause problems if they loosen up at the "staked" fittings. By this I mean the collars that are "jammed" together with a flat punch. A factory strut tube does not have this feature as it is not height adjustable. You have to properly preload the top spring, lock that in, then dial in the bottom clevis/clamp that bolts to the knuckle and play with that until the car sits at the right height - time consuming if no base settings are provided.

A lower suspension tie bar is not ideal as it "can" decrease your ground clearance rather dramatically right under the middle of the car, if it not designed correctly and or touches the exhaust pipe.
It does however provide serious benefit to the "weak" lower legs that hold the control arms. The same holds true for the upper strut bars, they keep the towers from deflecting to some degree.
What does create some great issue with under/oversteer, is a rear sway bar (aftermarket add-on).

Don't worry we are talking about the same parts, just a few different ways of naming/describing them.

Stock struts are sometimes lifetime warranty, like KYB's were offered over here, so check on that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:23 am 
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So the caster bar is also called a tie bar? I'll have to visit the shop the local 3G Lancer Club reccomended a few years back to confirm where this "Caster Bar" actually goes. I honestly have no idea where it's supposed to go and what it looks like.

The rear strut bar would most likely be custom made, so any recommendations there?

I'm confused to what you said here..
Quote:
What does create some great issue with under/oversteer, is a rear sway bar (aftermarket add-on).
So get KYB GR-2 shocks and use the stock springs? I don't remember where and when I've read this but my memory says something about springs/coils getting softer over time?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:30 pm 
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Hey, yes, coils can sag over time and and lowering springs will inevitably put the stock types shocks near they limit for spring rate handling ability and make a shorter life of them before things get bouncy.
The lesser of two evils, is to buy GR2/ExcelG from KYB with lifetime warranty, then match with a decent drop spring from a reputable company. Maybe use a different chassis code when searching if C53A doesn't come up with much. C58 will net the GTi version of our cars that came with a "heavier" front drivetrain like the turbo cars and will have stiffer spring rates to deal with that, or you will get spring rates meant to stiffen the 4g15 platform for front weight.

Sorry, my autocorrect on the phone leaves me wondering what I wrote a day or two later. Your quote should have read, "What does create some issue with over steering, or a more lively rear end when braking and or cornering, is the addition of a clamp on style rear anti-sway bar. It will induce more oversteer characteristics but has degrees of adjustability with different holes for different pre-loads.

There is a lower control arm, tie bar (much like you see dragging below the back of Honda Civics, that allows the joining of the front bolts holding the control arms, to be used as an anchor point. This helps with the lower stanchions of the front frame pieces that come down to hold the lower control arms, to flex less and deflect less under extreme circumstances. Yes, it can reduce ground clearance and could use a "hoop" to allow the exhaust to pass through as they intersect along the same plane.

Best way of thinking of the bars, is to ask yourself what they join with.

Upper strut bar = top strut mount bolt side to side, front or back same concept.
Tie bar = lower suspension brace that ties the lower pinnings together to keep them from moving.
Fender brace = (not yet developed specifically for our platform but is out there on the 6G Galants, ties the frame, door bolts and lower suspension frame braces together and provides more assistance in resistance of movement.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:38 pm 
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Here are a few pictures to help things along. It helps when you know some of the cross overs, like the Elantra/Lantra being very nearly identical in many ways, as well as the 4th Generation Colt/Mirage using very similar geometry and sharing many parts with little need for modification. Some of these details get lost over the years, so some are just now coming back to light.


Attachments:
File comment: rallyguys old rally car - C50 chassis using a massive support bar setup, also kept the engine safe and radiator supported. Very custom.
lower_enginebay_subframe_brace4point-good.jpg
lower_enginebay_subframe_brace4point-good.jpg [ 61.98 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
File comment: 93-96 Mirage/Colt upper strut bar modded to fit the bolt holes on a C50 platform car
93-96 Upper Strut Bar w modded holes to fit.jpg
93-96 Upper Strut Bar w modded holes to fit.jpg [ 8.56 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
File comment: (E)Lantra J1 body based suspension brace - factory part - requires little mod to work
ColtC52AAfterElantraFrameBrace.jpg
ColtC52AAfterElantraFrameBrace.jpg [ 92.74 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
File comment: Mount point
strearbar-bracket2.jpg
strearbar-bracket2.jpg [ 61.63 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
File comment: Adjustment points
strearbar-end.jpg
strearbar-end.jpg [ 60.41 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
File comment: Rear anti-sway bar - aftermarket
panhard Rod shot with rear sway bar installed.jpg
panhard Rod shot with rear sway bar installed.jpg [ 29.25 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
File comment: Upper strut bar - front C50 platform
Custom round tube strut bar front with box ends.jpg
Custom round tube strut bar front with box ends.jpg [ 34.01 KiB | Viewed 4357 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:41 pm 
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The Elantra suspension brace, was probably put in place to help with the massive torque steer that the car likely experienced with the 4g67 (1.8L DOHC) or 4G63 (2.0L DOHC) motors installed. -=insert sarcastic face right here=-. I can only guess, but if it helps and serves a purpose without adding too much weight, then great.


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