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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Spends Too Much Time Under The Hood
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as it states I need to re build my FWD transmission, just the syncros for 2nd gear. I have posted in other spots and no one has ever replied leading me to believe not many people have cracked one. I can find no videos or publications... am I nuts to try or should i just leave the horendous grind

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:46 pm 
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What year is the trans?

If it's 91-92.5, then I say go for it.

I just installed one of those 91-92.5 trans with rebuilt stuff inside, but I balked at disassembling it any further to confirm what sort of syncros it has.

In any case, the gear clusters need to removed and gears pressed off.
Upon reassembly, you have to check the preload on all the clusters and readjust if needed, likely yes.

I had to take mine to a trans shop locally, was best that way.

If the syncro is not working at all, the gear clusters are not mating at the same speeds when the fork is pushing the shell in place. This means your grind is the finely machined angle edges, or dog teeth that are being sheared off, worn down. Syncro worn means shafts at incorrect speed, dog teeth worn means improper cluster engagement and very hard to engage.

Get second replaced if things look okay once you tear down the trans. Given that you weren't able to shift nearly at all in your videos (2nd gear), I would be VERY surprised if the second gear cluster didn't need replacement to allow for properly timed shifts and long life.

Pulling apart what you have will yield results and you can send pics to a trans rebuilder for verification before shipping out individual shafts with clusters attached or ordering parts for a local to do the work for you.

There may be other issues inside the trans, and starting with what you have might be best, versus sourcing an unknown unit. I just went through this scenario for just a little over a year. My trans got a Quaife ATB LSD while it was apart, the AWD 25 spline model requiring the AWD DSM or KM201 ball and cage style diff bearings. This requires special shimming/Measurements BEFORE the bearings are pressed/installed to the diff. Please don't waste bearing like I did because they are slimmer in footprint compared to the tapered and separate race style. This requires extra shims under the bearing that goes between the bearing and the diff, below the final drive, when the two case halves are apart. More shimming may be required to get the diff up to the proper height to match the final drive gears, then when the case halves are installed to check for clearance and to calculate preload, there will be a new shim set installed at the top case. This is all fine and well for trans builders but not when you don't have bags of shims lying around or like my case, only shims to fit between the balls and cage bearing and the inner area of the diff housing, but no bag of shims to fit at the outer areas of the case on both halves! Fun times. :)

I'll step down from the pulpit now. Haha.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:16 am 
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Holy crap that actually sounds scary. Second gear will go in if I let the revs drop a little longer than a normal shift or if I double clutch (what I've been doing) but downshifts will not go in until the shaft has slowed down completely. Like a 2 second grind. Thank you for all the advice. I have a shop that will do it for $250 but as for them doing it correctly they have a 50/50 rep with DSM guys as mostly honda and Nissan vehicles arrive there. Good ol DSMers doing their own work

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Might be easier to just find another F5M33.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Quote:
Might be easier to just find another F5M33.
Well I can fix everything on the car except the trans. I was going to try it myself but It does almost seem easier. perhaps ill grab another and then crack this one as a project and document how many times i wanna shoot myself for opening it up lol :headache: ive never seen all of these before lol :headz:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:35 pm 
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I bet Jack's Transmissions has rebuilt them before. Just sayin'

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:49 pm 
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I've rebuilt the W5M33 AWD trans a couple times in the past. It's not a terribly difficult job, but you have to be organized and thorough. I have a link to the factory training worksheets for rebuilding these trans that I can dig up. I believe it's on lilevo's file share as well. I had a broken 3rd/4th gear shift fork so I decided to read up on the procedures and go for it. I replaced most of the internals while I was in there: EVO3 steel shift forks, upgraded to dual syncro 2nd gear, heavy duty shift rails, all new syncros, syncro springs, syncro keys, and hub/slider assemblies. You'll also need to replace the gear stack bearings/races as well and this is where you need to measure preload upon reassembly and then get appropriate shims to correct any slop. You'll need 3 jaw gear pullers as well as access to a shop press to pull apart the input and intermediate shafts with all the gears/syncros/hub sliders. There are small parts so staying organized is key. I left out the smallest part inside the whole trans called the reverse interlock plunger that inserts into the steel shift rails on one of the rebuilds and this prevented the selection of reverse. I had to pull the trans back out, tear it down to the bellhousing and insert the small little metal ball essentially. Not fun, but lesson learned. After doing it a couple of times and being successful, it was definitely a good educational exercise but I believe it is easier just to have one of the pro shops do the work. The cost of the parts is not cheap - I believe I was close to the $700 or more range IIRC as it's been 10 years - so doing it yourself vs having one of the reputable shops do it essentially comes down to paying for labor. If you have a busted spare though it's definitely worthwhile to tear it apart and put it back together to see the inner workings. The F5M33 being FWD would be slightly easier since you don't have to worry about the center differential and output shaft.

P.S. If you do decide to take apart a trans, I can offer you a trick to loosen the input and intermediate shaft 32mm nuts found once you open the end case involving a penny :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:54 pm 
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I have a W5M33 apart on my bench right now for new syncros. It's fun and worth doing. I put new ones in the transmission that's currently in my Colt, and it shifts great now. If you have the tools, and a service manual, and some patience, it shouldn't be all that bad. main thing is, don't put any hard tools against the edges of the gear teeth, because they can be very brittle.

Usually you can separate the gearsets by placing the gear against a pair of wooden blocks, then drop a 1/4" extension inside the shaft for something to tap on. Tap off one piece at a time, because sometimes you'll press off a bearing cone, and find a retainer clip behind it that needs to be removed before the next section. You'll also need a bearing splitter.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 8:42 pm
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Location: Puerto Rico
Quote:
I've rebuilt the W5M33 AWD trans a couple times in the past. It's not a terribly difficult job, but you have to be organized and thorough. I have a link to the factory training worksheets for rebuilding these trans that I can dig up. I believe it's on lilevo's file share as well. I had a broken 3rd/4th gear shift fork so I decided to read up on the procedures and go for it. I replaced most of the internals while I was in there: EVO3 steel shift forks, upgraded to dual syncro 2nd gear, heavy duty shift rails, all new syncros, syncro springs, syncro keys, and hub/slider assemblies. You'll also need to replace the gear stack bearings/races as well and this is where you need to measure preload upon reassembly and then get appropriate shims to correct any slop. You'll need 3 jaw gear pullers as well as access to a shop press to pull apart the input and intermediate shafts with all the gears/syncros/hub sliders. There are small parts so staying organized is key. I left out the smallest part inside the whole trans called the reverse interlock plunger that inserts into the steel shift rails on one of the rebuilds and this prevented the selection of reverse. I had to pull the trans back out, tear it down to the bellhousing and insert the small little metal ball essentially. Not fun, but lesson learned. After doing it a couple of times and being successful, it was definitely a good educational exercise but I believe it is easier just to have one of the pro shops do the work. The cost of the parts is not cheap - I believe I was close to the $700 or more range IIRC as it's been 10 years - so doing it yourself vs having one of the reputable shops do it essentially comes down to paying for labor. If you have a busted spare though it's definitely worthwhile to tear it apart and put it back together to see the inner workings. The F5M33 being FWD would be slightly easier since you don't have to worry about the center differential and output shaft.

P.S. If you do decide to take apart a trans, I can offer you a trick to loosen the input and intermediate shaft 32mm nuts found once you open the end case involving a penny :lol:
Where i can find those exact rebuild parts you stated there. I really need the steel 3-4 evo 3 steel fork. I just broke my 2nd trans and its the same problem the 2. Car get stuck in 3rd and i was thinking abiut doing the rebuild myself with quality parts.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Location: Lakewood Ranch, FL
Quote:
Where i can find those exact rebuild parts you stated there. I really need the steel 3-4 evo 3 steel fork. I just broke my 2nd trans and its the same problem the 2. Car get stuck in 3rd and i was thinking abiut doing the rebuild myself with quality parts.
I honestly couldn't tell you nowadays. 10 years or so ago when I was doing those rebuilds, I believe I ordered the individual parts through TRE (Team RIP). Obviously, a decade later the EVO 3 parts are probably becoming harder and harder to find/source. I'd check with one of the big vendors to see if you can source from them, i.e. TRE, Shep, and/or Jack's. I know Shep has mainly moved on to servicing Nissan GTR transmissions, but I've heard he will still help out the DSM community from time to time, especially if you've been a customer in the past.


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